tv Charlie Rose PBS February 14, 2011 12:30pm-1:30pm EST
>> welcome to our program. we're in cairo on a very historic day. it is now about 11:35 p.m. in cairo. on friday evening and you can see over my shoulder around the bridge that crosses the nile, the cars are there, the people are there, they are still celebrating. we'll take a look at this historic day and see what happened that may change the middle east. >> the scene right now out in the street is just unbelievable. i saw little kids crawling out of tanks. children dancing. flags everywhere. tremendous elation. i think, you know, the lid's come off the pressure cooker. and mubarak held this
country in his grip. for the last 30 years. and he is gone. and people can hardly believe their eyes. >> we shouldn't be worried too much about the military now is in control. for few days or months or maybe more. because people know that. and even during mubarak, pew barack and his people used to say well, why are you worried. you can take what we are doing now and if we do something wrong f you don't believe us, tahrir square is there. come back. so they know. people know that they are going to be accountable for whatever they do. >> the first thing that comes to everyone's head, did this really happen, what took place, what happened. and then you start to hearing people throwing words here and there that the president has resigned, the president has resigned. and then the next question is who is taking over, how did he resign or but then you just celebrate, you know, we've accomplished such a big thing in such a small time. so it was wonderful feeling,
truly,. >> this revolution is going to be studied and examined very thur ree-- thoroughly, especially in the age of globalization and the age of the social media. the impact of the social media. and this type of what we call horizontal organization that was very difficult for a repressive and autocratic regime like mubarak to suppress it and kill it in its beginning. and how it managed overnight, over days to gather actually and galvanize and mobile eizen tire populations. >> rose: from cairo, an historic day when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose was provided by the following. maybe you want school kids to have more exposure to the arts. maybe you want to provide meals for the needy.
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they feel free and they feel hopeful. and perhaps they is provided some possibility for the idea that people have power. the city has erupted in jubilation. it is now after 11:30 in cairo and the celebrations continue. the dramatic moment came today when television flashed a signal that president hosni mubarak had resigned after 30 years in power and that the supreme counsel of the army was in charge .
>> and here are some of the dramatic scenes that happened today in this evening that the networks covering these events captured with their cameras . >> absolute pandemonium, at the word from egypt's vice president, he announced that hosni mubarak who has been the leader of that country for almost 30s has indeed
stepped down. surely the rule of mubarak was not going to last. given this springing up of democracy. app so the question is how do you keep stability in the transition until a new government is formed. you can hear that roar behind me in the croid here in tahrir. we are looking of course, we are now confirming president hosni mubarak is stepping down. he is stepping down and leaving the presidency. this is the culmination now of weeks of public protest. can you hear this the car's honking. vice president omar suleiman just confirmed hosni mubarak's 30 year rule ended and ended tonight. >> i think one man summed it
very well, he said we did it and the crowd, these streets are empty this afternoon. the rest of cairo around tahrir square look like a ghost town and now the streets are starting to fill up now that the sun has set on both the egyptian capital and hosni mubarak's presidency, with cars, people driving i processions waving flags and honking horns right now just a minute ago i saw a woman doing pragers on her knees. she was using an egyptian flag as a prayer carpet. people chanting freedom and cheering in the streets, we walked past banging drums in the streets. the street party is going to last all night. >> then president obama in washington said this. >> today belongs to the people of egypt. and the american people are moved by these scenes in cairo and across egypt because of who we are as a people. and the kind of world that
we want our children to grow up in. the word tahrir means liberation. there is a word that speaks to that something in our souls that cries out for freedom. and forever more it will remind us of the egyptian people. and what they did, of the things that they stood for. and how they changed their country and in doing so, changed the world. >> rose: it is hard, very hard to express the emotion that is so powerful on the streets of this city. here's some of the scenes my producers shot with bhee as we came to the studio this evening. >> . >> we are a revolution .
. >> these pictures speak volumes but make no mistake, the hard work is just beginning. the people who have made this day from all sides now come together to try to reshape a country. we begin our conversation about this day in just a moment. >> we are now here with hafez al mirazi, a talk show host with al arabiya,
formerly the bureau chief in washington for al jazeera. also here an old friend of this broadcast, roger cohen, columnist for "the new york times". he has seen a lot of the kinds of things that we are witnessing here in cairo. he was in tehran, for example, for the explosion that came after the election. but i want to begin this program this evening to give you who are watching on television, and television cannot describe the experience of being here. the sense of what it's like on the street. so i turn to people who help me because they have seen it from the street. i begin with roger cohen. tell me about this day since it was announced that hosni mubarak was leaving. >> well, charlie, from the moment the announcement came and after all the long speeches and evasiveness of mubarak it was a very brief announcement from vice president suleiman in the
end, just that hosni mubarak had resigned and handed authority over to the army. and then there was this explosion, honking, fireworks, the scene right now out in the street is just unbelievable. i saw little kids crawling out of a tanks. children dancing. flags everywhere. trechl does elation. i think, you know, the lid's come off the pressure cooker and mubarak held this country in his grip. for the last 30 years. and he's gone. and people can hardly believe their eyes. remember this only really began 18 days ago. tunisia, of course, helped people get over their fear. and then this young generation of egyptians, 20 somethings, a leaderless revolution, they proved faster, more adept, better organized than this hierarchy. and mubarak was behind the curb every step of the way, he was behind the curb. and he wouldn't adapt to the
modernizing urges of egypt. and he's paid the price. >> rose: halfest, are you here, you live here. >> yes. >> rose: you are egyptian. >> i am so forth national. my son called me from washington and said, i don't know how lucky you are because at least as a news guy, not a person, to be in washington with al jazeera cover, for the arab world 9/11 on that day and all the people like watching that. and to be with al arabiya is now becoming number one satellite station in the region. and also carrying for people. these i mean historical moments. i am really pleased because here in egypt i came back to egypt after 24 years of living in the states in washington as a journalist. and to be lucky, really, to witness history become written, in front of us, the last revolution that
happened in egypt was in the old dynasty. before the builders of the pyramids. since that time, you could talk about-- things like that. but not something as massive and as big as this one. i also sense that egyptians as i walk the streets today, after the announcement, there is a sense of pride because they believe they are from a great country. and they believe that a great country has been reborn. >> that's true. >> rose: is that fair? >> it is fair. and also they are the realizing that with modesty. i mean before that, without any achievement or their generation, they used to be proud of the history of the pyramids. as if they belonged to those people who build the pyramids. but now when they really achieved something tangible, and everybody witnessed for
that and cannot even argue about the achievement that they have done, yet they are modest about what they have done, especially the young people, you have to remember that you don't have leaders or spokespeople for this revolution. and each one of them, even today in my show, the one who really denied-- . >> rose: the google executive. >> exactly. and he kept saying, he read a statement that, refuting all what mubarak said the day before. and saying that was not enough. and this is what we want. and yet said, i'm saying that as an activist. >> rose: what is remarkable too is to know that the people who went in there on january 25th into tahrir square and then were joined by a whole range of people, they were constantly told over the next 18 days, you won, you have enough. you have concessions. and they stood, they stood fast in believing that they
could achieve their goal first the removal of the president and then the creation of democracy. but so many people urged them to compromise early. >> yeah, all kinds of self-styled wisemen, people who are older and wiser and thought they could be mediators were saying pew barack, has said he will go in september. his party, the ndp has been eviscerated. the dine tse has been broken, what more do you want. but they were absolutely clear that every concession was essentially meaningless as long as mubarak he mained there. one guy said to me, look, we may have demands from one to 20, number one being mubarak's removal and then all the rest. they can give us all the rest, but it's still meaningless if he's there. and the big problem about this whole theatre, this whole weird choreography, that the regime came up with
was that so long as either mubarak or suleiman who had been his henchman and deputy for a long time were there, and some people might say okay, mubarak's gone but the army is in charge, that's hardly democracy. and of course it remains to be seen how the army will use the power it now has. but what we've seen in the last 18 days here, i think, in egypt has been a very professional and restrained army. this 1.3 billion dollars a year that the u.s. has been investing in the army, i think, well, we'll see now over the coming period how the army acts. but i've been very impressed. in the communique this morning from the army was very clear. it said we are here to guarantee the democratic transition that the people, the honest people, it said, of egypt are looking for. we are the guarantors of that process. how exactly they are going to do that, we're going to discover in the coming days and weeks. but i think it's clear that the u.s. egyptian military
relationship is very strong. and will be watching what the-- what comes next very closely. and personally, i think, there's reason to be cautiously hopeful that the army is goinging to push things in the right direction. i mean people are jumping up and down with soldiers, hugging soldiers. you know, the defense minister was very clear from the outset, he, you know, we was telling the u.s. ambassador here and others even during the tunisian uprising, look, armies are the protectors of the people. they're not the protectors of any one man. or any one regime. we represent the egyptian nation. and that's what we've seen. >> and that is really unique. because even for me, i had very strong doubts that the military is goinging to be neutral in the case of egypt compared to tunisia. i was in tunisia covering the events immediately after
the ousting of ben ali. and at that time i thought well, it is different. in tunisia the army has never tasted to take power or to be in control because first-- was a civilian guy, a lawyer who built modern tunisia and came as a-- but yet the military didn't have that. but here in egypt after a legacy of people who belong to the military, not sadat and mubarak, how come someone would imagine that the military would just relinquish power and leave it though those people over there. well, it is too early to judge. but it's very clear and i believe had they had a chance especially the faces of the old regime who had control over the army, if they had a chance to really crack down on the uprising, and when maybe they would have done it but because they knew they couldn't,
with 2 million people. >> they knew because the army would not allow it? >> well, first, i mean, what could you do with all massive waves of human beings. marching in to provincial palace and into places over there. you had the police with $2 million people, are trained for this kind of dealinging with the ryeouts and demonstrators. and all collapsed on the 28th in one day. so what do you expect from tanks, and military that is to the geared to have warfare in the streets of cairo with their own people. you cannot expect them to win. so first of all, i mean they wouldn't have started because they knew they were wise enough that it wouldn't have worked out. so and now they realize very well that the minute they try to claim it for themselves, it would be difficult. and for that reason, they decided tonight to let
egyptians celebrate. and they need really a lot of time to know if we're going to have provincial council, an interim one, to take care of the interim period, how many civilians and military are going to be. are they going to involve the sillian now or not. these are tough questions because they know that they are tough questions to do because there are people there who are going to make them accountable. and that was not the case before when the army used to take power in egypt. >> what has the army promised the egyptian people. >> they've said that they are going to faithly guide this process toward open, free elections and a democracy, the rule of law in egypt. what the people have risen up for. let's not underestimate the task. it's not just 309 years of pew barack. ever since nasa's coup of 1952 egypt has lived in a dictator ship. so developing a democratic culture, laying the
foundation of democracy, this society has to be remade from the ground up. but i have been amazed, charlie, by an in tahrir square was just the most breathtaking phenomenon, really. i mean the way, the culture, the discipline, the organization, the camaraderie that the egyptian people, i said to myself so many times in that square, there is going to be a disaster. a hundred people are going to get crushed. i mean it is a fairly confined space. yet, there was an infirmary, garbage in cairo. garbage was being collected. there was even a spot for organic waste. what you saw in tahrir is that despite this absence of democracy for a long time, there is this very deep culture here. and the most profound change i think has been a cultural one. and people, so many people said to me, i thought my life was worthless. i felt as a human being i didn't count. i felt i didn't have the power to change things. i felt i didn't have the
capacity to do things. and this change in the arab world is huge because you know, why, people who don't feel they have any identity, any dignity, clearly there is some appeal for those kinds of people. for some of them in these radical extremist organizations that say well, come with us. subsume your identities into this. so i think the dignity that is being born here in egypt is a very important egypt-- event to the arab world. >> speak to that, because that is really what is happening here. that is what i refer to earlier as sense of pride in egypt and self-esteem. >> this is exactly what they did. and that's why i'm saying, we shouldn't be worried too much about the military now is in control. for few days or months, or maybe more. because people know that. and even during mubarak, pew barack and his people used to say well, why are you worried. you can take what we are doing now and if we do something wrong, if you don't believe us, tahrir square is there. come back.
so they know, people know that they are goinging to be accountable for whatever they do. but also i would like to say the implications for the whole region. i mean tunisia is like something that you needed to ignite their a-bomb. so for the a-bomb you need a small bomb in order to ignite it. but then for egypt, as the a-bomb. so what kind of implications are going to be in the whole region. you really need to watch. >> two thoughts about that. does this give momentum to people in saudi arabia who say we want to change the regime? does it give momentum or are those circumstances so different that it could never gain traction. >> well, i think there are different circumstances, the kind of dick state-- dictatorship you've had in arab republics like egypt or syria. and the monarchies that you
just meningzed, i think there are differences. but already weapon's seen movement in jordan. and i think everywhere. this is the coming, the beginning of the coming fing the arab world into the modern world. there's been a kind of arab "jurassic park". if you count the years in power of ghaddafi, mubarak and others, 150 years between five guys. so i think everywhere, it won't take exactly this form but you're going to have people saying we want freedom of expression. we want to have some form of representation in our government. we want to be actors. we don't want to be subjects. >> rose: yes. >> and it took 11 days only between between ben ali leaving the country and the revolution or uprising to win in tunisia, and the egypt to start. the 14th of january, the 25th of january. it is no time at all is so you can really imagine how long it is going to take or
how many hours before the next state in the middle east. >> rose: here is what i think is one of the great stories here. and i'm not sure it is as big as i think it is, but perhaps. it is that what has emerged here is an alternative to the kind of rage that has been sort of focused through jihad and a kind of fundamental islamist radical violence. that here you have peaceful, powerful, democratic force that people can believe in who believe in change and sometimes thought you know, the only place they could find change out of desperation was somewhere else. now they see a new place for change. >> yeah, and you are an image that is totally different from the stereotype about islamists. >> exactly. >> because in order for them. >> in the streets too. >> in joining portions. >> exactly. they feel now that for they
are distinguishing themselves from talking about al qaeda, terrorists, or whatever, and an islamist is saying yes, today just today i heard on the egyptian government tv one of those people religious guy, and he was saying and saying to the reporter, i came here today following a christian girl, shouting and leading me in the-- and he is proud, yes, i am saying that. and most of the churches were guarded with no police after the chaos of police, all the police operators collapsing with islamist people from the muslim brotherhood and others. not only them but they really participated in protecting the churches. so this is giving another dimension to that you don't have as long as you include them in the process. you tell them this is the road this is the institution, these are the real, the
rules of the game. you can have a space or a place on the stable. the minute you tell any party you don't have a place on the table, then you have a problem of underground. >> they seem to be giving everybody a place at the table. >> exactly. >> from the muss him brotherhood to all kinds of opposition groups. >> i think there have been lots of moments like that, or kind of two egypts meeting each other or multiple egypts meeting each other. i was watching a conversation on the square yesterday, actually, charlie, between a brotherhood guy, bearded brotherhood guy and he had been tortured by the regime. he suddenly pulled up the bottom of his pants and his entire calf was completely scarred from being repeatedly electrocuted. and she was a young westernized egyptian woman. and i asked her, i said i guess, you know, a few weeks ago if you had passed each other in the street you might have felt a bill of unease. we have felt, and there they were talking to each other and comparing their experiences. and finding that their
pooled egyptian identity. i thinks this's been a lot of that. you know, it's easy to romant size there are going to be different parties with different beliefs. but one of the great virtues of democracies and you see it in neighboring israel is that you can have religious parties, that are present in the array of political forces that have their inannounce but get, you know, absurded within the overall democratic. >> speaking of israel, by the way, if you go to the embassy here although they didn't, i mean they are not putting the nag out or something like that, and you don't have that much police around, yet no single demonstration has gathered close totem wasee of israel. >> this has been about egypt. >> exactly. >> it is not -- >> and dictators in the region have always used it for the u.s. to say we are protecting israel. we are the people who could could normalize. and if those people come they would have a problem.
they care about their own issues. >> rose: all right. but that raises this question as we have talked about all that sort of admirable and all that is passionate about this. what could go wrong? where are the possibilities of someone hijacking this? >> well, we're in a heady moment, charlie this is just-- i think we're all just happy to be here. it's just so extraordinary. but all this goodwill is not going to make some facts disappear. and they include 30% elite rassee in egypt. extremely high poverty levels. if, and the economy has just taken a battering. tourism is one of the foundations of this economy. and there's not going to be a lot of tourism this year. so you know, if the change can't deliver for those, you know, all those deep socioeconomic problems which were one of the elements in this uprising. i think that could be problematic. the other obvious difficulty
is that there is no democratic political tull ture-- culture. you know, how, what political parties are going to form. how will they form. how will the debate on the constitution go. and i think it is important that it go fairly fast. i mean i don't think we want, you know, with all respect to the egyptian military this wasn't about leaving the military in power for the next five years or even two years. >> it was about creating a democracy. >> and i think that has to be within one year. now it could be six months, that seems a little-- mohamed elbaradei thinks that is too short a time. he wants to see one year. i would say one year is the outside limit. otherwise people are going to start questioning that. >> an also we need the south african models in their next because they mean by that disclosure amnesty and reconciliation. all the people who are related to the regime, corrupted by the regime had abuses against the people. you wouldn't, you would need to get into bloodbaths, and
revenge and retaliation for years. >> i agree with that. >> but what you need is really to encourage this kind of south africa. first you need to disclose. it is not about forget about what happened we're going to start now. no, you cannot start from cloon place without first saying this close for me. you have an amnesty even on the lowest levels. and then let's have a reconciliation. and this is very important. because this is going to be the next question after people finish with the men, or big names with the regime or related it to corruption and oppression. then they would start talking about officers and people on the neighborhood and all of that stuff. and it's going to be no end for it if we don't start. >> thank you for cominging this evening on this extraordinary day in egyptian history. roger, thank you. back in a moment. stay with us.
>> rose: we continue from cairo with emad shahin, professor of politics at the university of notre dame. i just flew in here today, immediately went to the square and has been there and has been talking to people. one person there also joins u, ally alah a protestor. he is a graduate here of the american university in cairo. he works in private enterprice and he has been here several different times us he wanted to be part of the history that was taking place. so i begin with him. tell me your experience. >> i think it's something that i would have never imagined two weeks ago or three weeks back, i would have never imagined that this, there would come a day that we would actually be referring to the president as the former president. i was in geneva and i was more or less checking the news and then he had come to see that people are starting to gather on the 25th of jan,
the people of facebook are doing a protest. so what we had been thinking were the people thinking okay, let's hope this goes somewhere nicement and then at the end of the day you see that they are actually t hends-- ends up with hundreds of thousands of people going there. so this is the time that you think that i wish i was part of this. and then you start hearing people, okay, we're looking for a bigger march on friday, the coming friday. and this is when you decide that this is, you want to be optimistic. you want to feel that maybe this going to be the time where there will be some change happening in this country. >> can you be part of history. >> i can be part of history, exactly. so i decide to come for this weekend. to come for the friday which they refer to as the friday of rage or friday of anger which was the 28th. this is when we came. this was the time where things were still quite rough there was a lot of opposition, i would say, from the regime. it was quite the police were holding us back as much as
they possibly can. we weren't able to be very expressive as we had wanted. we were going out with a lot of peace. we didn't want to do any damage to the country, yet we found a lot of opposition on that front and this is when people decided to continue. and we wanted to get this somewhere. so i decided that i will do my best to try to fly in every time. there will be a sort of organizationed protest taking place whether in tahrir or trying to approach tahrir. >> and did you this because of love of country. >> of course. i mean you've been seeing the country. i don't want to say in a weakening state but i have owned my life from the day i was born, i have always been seeing the country as under the same control. and unfortunately, i have been witnessing especially since i traveled abroad, i haven't been living here. i haven't been seeing the
country day-by-day. every time i come and visit i would see changes happening and it for the worse. it was sort of a beacon, where it was, you see some light or some hope o of course it was something very, it was such a nice feeling to try and be part of writing history, a as a lot of people would have -- >> when the announcement came today. >> yes. >> it was i mean it was one of the best actually it was the best feelinging that i ever felt. the mood was a lot of celebration. millions of people down celebrating in one voice, at the same time. at first you find a group of people chanting and shouting and suddenly screaming so you wouldn't have any-- the first thing that comes to everyone ree's head z this really happen. what took place, what happened and then you start hearing people throwing words here and there that the president has resigned. the president has resigned. and then the next question is okay, who is taking over. how did he resign.
but then you just celebrate, you know. we've accomplished such a big thing in such a small time. so it was a wonderful feeling, truly. >> this is reflected in hundreds of thousands of experiences. tell me what you saw. i mean you are a student of middle eastern politic its. and history. >> this is a major victory for the egyptian people. for egyptians have been able to get rid of their pharoah peacefully. so they got rid of the pharoah it is a huge accomplishment. as a student of history, i think this revolution is going to be studied and examined very thoroughly, how it started. especially in the age of globalization and age of the social media. the impact of the social media and this type of what we call-- horizontal organization that was very difficult for a repressive
and autocratic regime like mubarak's to suppress it and kill it in its beginnings. and how he managed overnight, over days to gather actually and to galvanize and mobilize the entire population. it drew people from different walks of life, social segments. i have been, you know, like last night and today, in the street, in tahrir square, you see people from every walk of life. every segment of social society. mothers, infants, old people. youth, social-- different social backgrounds. different ages. it has been spreading throughout the country. with all the attempts to contain it, to suppress it. and i think the regime was pleased to do that. and they managed to be transferred. >> and so where are we now? the army has control. >> the army is in charge of the transfer. the transition of egypt from
where it has been to where it's going. >> okay. one good thing came out of this announcement a few hours ago, is that the country has avoided a major confrontation between the military establishment and the people. i think that was one the designs. and possibly given the fact that mubarak's statement last night was really disappointing to the majority of the egyptian population and his refusal to step down, was really a sending veing dangerous and risky signals that the country was on the verge of a confrontation between the military establishment and the rest of the population. the military, of course, took the right decision by stepping in and preventing such an escalation, such a bloody confrontation from happening. this is a transition, as you said. and this is not a new scenario. we have seen this happening in several countries. and we have a lot of models.
we have a turkish model where the army and the military has always played a role in several democratic transitions. where we have seen it in other places, even in the arab world like algeria in 1991. also when the military steps in, and gradually eased out or phased out of the political scene. and of course allowed the continuation of presidential elections or parliamentary elections. >> rose: is this the new model for political change, or not just in the middle east, but around the world where there are yearnings to overthrow a regime. >> right, look, the middle east in particular, the situation has been stagnant for decades. you have seen this phenomenon of what we call now hereditary helpics. presidents who come to power. and most cases through illegal means or il legitimate manies by coup or what not. and then they try to sustain for a long period of time. and then they try to bequest
power to their children and sons and so on. this is i think now changing the mood. and giving some kind of a model. that the people can dictate and determine their own future. and we have the means and the power to do that. what happened in egypt is really remarkable, in a number of things. the egyptian people, especially the youth, have empowered itself and have managed actually to manage the rest of the population. by what we can call the tools of globallization, the social media. the clever and skillful types of organization, the persistance and also the use of-- let's not forget this has always been a peaceful revolution. despite that, the terms of the regime to send thug and turn it into a bloody and violent one. but luckily all this backfired in the face. >> rose: could this happen uniquely in egypt, obviously in tunisia, because of the nature of the army in egypt? >> you mean the-- . >> rose: the nature of the
army, and its respect on the part of the citizenry. >> right, right. >> rose: and the sense that it didn't-- it is he gyp has been led by former military officers for the last 50 years. >> yes. >> rose: nasser. >> sadat. >> mubarak. >> yes, this is true. of course, if you compare the tunisian case and the egyptian case and i would go into other case, the ton easian army and the situation of the ton ease yafern army status and size is different from the egyptian army. the ton easian army was a small army, depoliticized and also the president there made a fatal mistake by actually asking the chief of staff to fire at the demonstrator. something which he disobeyed. and then he asked the president or toppled the president. and egypt is a different story. the military this is the military, egypt can claim ownership of the country based on the 1952 revolution
and also based on other factors. the october war and the legitimacy that has acquired. and also it is highly regarded by the majority of the population in egypt it is not a corrupt military. it is not an oppressive military. maybe the state security or secret services are repressive of the people and so on but not the military so it, as i said t is highly respected for the military and also i think it took a -- >> it is all from the beginning of the crisis, especially the part where it has a certain and kept reconfirming its commitment, its understanding of the legitimate demands of the egyptian people and their aspiration for freedom and democratic life and change. and also pledged to uphold these demands, even in the last statement this is exactly what the statement is sending or the message that the statement is sending. that the military is going to work and to uphold the legitimate demands of the
egyptian people. >> do you know what happened between the president's address last night and the announcement today? >> yes, i think there was clearly, clearly, look, if someone reads a sequence of events and some of the signals that the military has sent, i think it was very easy to conclude that he-- events will start unfolding to that direction. the military issued its statement understatement number one. in the arab world. >> rose: communique number one. >> in the arab world this means a coup is taking place. this is exactly the phrase. >> rose: when there is a coup they issue communiques. >> in numbers. so number one came. observing the situation. understanding legitimate demands and thenhey waited for the president to see the response to his statement. and the response was a resolve determination on the egyptian people to continue
until mubarak leaves. and since i think the military took the signal it has to step in. because other option was a return to start clashing. and bloody clashes. >> rose: you are saying afering mubarak's speech which was as many have said -- >> disappointing. >> rose: badly written, badly delivered and seemed to be a patchwork of a number of kinds of things, that the military then realized that they had to do something more. >> right. >> rose: that nothing would be acceptable without the depar ture of the president. >> exactly. because the other alternative was dragging the military into some kind of a bloody and violent confrontations with the civilians. this is something that the military has always tried to avoid and has never done before. >> rose: and pledged not do here. >> and pledged not do here. >> rose: so how does this change what you might want to do at all. does this, i mean, the impact on your life.
you clearly feel pride. you clearly feel achievement. you clearly believe you participated in history opinions yes. >> rose: so do you go back to your job now and say i'm happy i did this for several -- >> yes, of course. >> weeks. >> i will have to resume my normal life. that's what i will do. i was never part of any political-- i was never politically active. just i felt the need to participate in such a change. i will go back to my normal life but now i'm more comfortable that i feel there is hope. i feel there could be change. i'm looking forward to when i come back to see the improvements and to try to see the community, sort of develop in a better direction, i will also try to see where i can help in any way. i mean to try to just get my
thoughts together. i am trying to come back. i will be expecting some changes in the systems that have been placed, the infrastructure is being developed more. honestly i'm not sure what i can do in person. but i'm really looking fooringd to seeing developingments in the country. i'm sure this can happen, if any new leader comes that can take the conscientious of the people or maybe then i can give my opinion. >> rose: how long do you think will take for this transition to take place. >> usually it takes from a year to three to five years. >> rose: three to five years. >> yes, we have case before. we have seen cases before, more tanya, sudan and so on where there was a military coup, take over. >> rose: could it be faster. could it be -- >> we hope it's faster. look, this is the task. one, they have to, of course the first thing, they have to suspend the constitution. they have to resolve parliament. the lower and upper chamber.
and then they have to prepare for a new election, write a new constitution. i don't think this will take less than six months to one year. the least. hopefully it takes, you know, a shorter period than that. because the word, the phrase six months has been circulating so hopefully it will be six months. but i doubt. i think it will be six months to one year, if not we go into three years. >> rose: so people are more willing, more accepting of that now that mubarak is gone. >> this is a major victory, yes. this was the top, the top demand on the list. that mubarak leave. >> rose: the second demand was the emergency room, that's now, you have the promise from the military. >> exactly. >> rose: third was constitutional change. you have the promise from the military. >> that was the sequence. the first depar ture of mubarak. the ending the emergency law, rule, and so on. and then of course the issue of the-- and so investigations with those who have committed crimes gonnes the people. through the process, or even throughout the political and
financial life of egypt and so on. so that will take time. that will take time, definitely. and of course to get their act together to assess the situation, to see how they can contribute. whether old political parties will be banned from participating, whether they will allow new political parties that will take time. >> rose: does egypt have the potential to emerge from this democratic, prosperous, a role model for the region? >> yes. >> definitely. look, egypt is a-- egypt is a centerist country. centerist and central. >> rose: and secular. >> predominantly secular. yes. religion plays-- . >> rose: secular does not mean there is not a strong religious feeling t just means the government is separate from a theocrayy. >> definitely. and to add to its credit,
egypt has had i think a successful secular liberal experience before, from 1919 the egyptian revolution i'm sure you heard about, and especially in 1923, 23 constitution that was really a liberal constitution so we had a party line before, there were some weaknesses within the experience and some short comings but at least we had a legacy. even though it is-- we can build on this legacy there are some institutions in egypt that still have and have takened this liberal legacy. here i'm talking about the judicial system. the judicial system, judiciary in egypt in essence is liberal in terms of training, in terms of ethos and culture, judges and so on. they are liberal. and also more importantly, egyptians for the past at least eight years or ten years have managed to develop a highly diverse plurallistic reformist political agenda.
that can really give the impetus for a successful and conducive democratic life. so i'm hopeful in this regard. in terms it of economics, the economy of egypt, i know, the economy has suffered through the past three weeks. especially this is a-- state that depends on external revenues from tourism and suz canal and this type of revenues. but i'm hopeful and optimistic about the future of the egyptian economy because a democratic government will provide a rule of law, transparency, accountability and end corruption. these four elements killed the egyptian economy and created the ramp of corruption and state of cronyism that we all suffered from in the past three decades. >> rose: when you look at, first of all, there is, i would assume, because there has been some economic growth in egypt. there is a group of entrepreneurs who prepared to build on a new, they are
certainly academics here. they are certainly 40% of the population under 25. so the elements are there to build a new society. >> yes. >> yes. >> yes. >> i mean maybe what, from what i know, and please correct me if i'm wrong is that at a certain point of time egypt was 8% economic growth. i think now we're around 4%. i got this somewhere. >> so that's a major drawback or fall. you see countries like china. i don't know what is keeping us from beinging there. so you always wish your, to see better growth. i mean from an economic -- >> i think the key now is opportunity and hope this is exactly what all this -- >> opportunity to hope and confidence. >> and confidence, exactly. the egyptians have been in power. this is exactly what you hear in tahrir square, we have been in power.
as a political scientist i don't like-- to be in politics. i don't like military to be the safeguard or watchdog for democracy. because if you do so, you writing riding a tiger. and the military is a tiger. it k any time, flip and turn over and devour you. and devour power. however people here will tell you, listen, we have defense of flee dom and we are capable of doing this again. if the military does not deliver on its promises we can take to the streets again. this is the celebration. so i see here the potential. as we said, as you said there is a educated youth. maybe it's not as competitive and trained as it should have been for a globalized world but this is an opportunity to train, to start streamlining the education system. to equip them with technical skills torque have a vision. to have a vision for a new democratic free egypt. that has all the potential as you said, the know how, the entrepreneurs. now we have been following some kind of structure
adjustment program and new liberal policies and so on. so we have the infrastructure for it. so hopefully this will carry on for the future. >> is it fair to sum this up that this is about the power of people to change their government? >> that's what we have seen here. >> yes. >> if they were willing to take the risk, if they were willing to be committed to their principleses, if they were willing to be clear about who they were and what they wanted. >> i think is the opportunity that took-- over will,000 injured in order to achieve this so this should not be forgotten. >> rose: it is not without a price. >> it is a price. it a heavy price. >> i know, some revolutions, you know, offered more than that, but every soul counts. every soul counts. and we should not forget
these hundreds that fell for their dream, the dream of a prosperous free and happy life. >> thank you for coming on this evening. >> thank you for inviting me. >> pleasure to meet you. >> thank you. pleasure to meet you. >> my thanks to all the people who helped us bring these conversations about this momentous time to you, especially the people at video cairo sat who have helped us bring the pictures and the words back home. captioning sponsored by rose communications